Under the sun

Wednesday, August 08, 2007

Naming Convention

தமிழ் ப்ராமணர்கள் தங்களது குழந்தைகளுக்கு அதி"நவீனத்தனமான" வடமொழிப்பெயர்கள் சூட்டுவதே சற்று வெறுப்படயச்செய்யும் வழக்கம் என்ற நிலையில், முதலியார்களும், செட்டியார்களும், வெள்ளாளர்களும் போட்டி போட்டுக்கொண்டு சற்றும் பொருந்தாத பெயர்களை சூட்டுவது வேடிக்கை தான்!

Reminds me of a Kounder dialogue in Jai Hind(?)-he is a cop-, "Dei, ennada peru idhu? Ramsamy, Kuppusamy nu!! Police na oru 'James', 'David', 'Michael' nu style-a irukka venaam?"

Talking about names, the general Tamil practice of having only initials instead of surnames should be done away with - too many hassles arise because of that. May we all start following naming conventions, starting with our progeny!

36 Comments:

  • I think the Dravidian movement is responsible for stripping off the surnames from our full names.
    I don't think it used to be the "general practice" or something like that before.

    By Blogger Zero, at Wed Aug 08, 01:36:00 PM  

  • One of my friends has named his kid as 'SaiSahasrajith', after referring to Bhagavat Geetha for few weeks. His wife suggested this name but sadly his own parents are finding it hard to pronounce it. I visited his place sometime back. the situation was pathetic. the kid's grandmother was calling out a name which sounded more or less like 'Seru Sagadhi'.
    Idhellam thevaya ivangulukku?
    Innoru friendoda(a Tam Bram) kozhandainga peru - Akshaj(not Akshay) and Nayanthree(93). Kaetta Vishnu Saharanamathulerndhu Eduthaangalaam!

    By Anonymous Deepak, at Wed Aug 08, 02:00:00 PM  

  • //தமிழ் ப்ராமணர்கள் தங்களது குழந்தைகளுக்கு அதி"நவீனத்தனமான" வடமொழிப்பெயர்கள் சூட்டுவதே சற்று வெறுப்படயச்செய்யும் வழக்கம் என்ற நிலையில், முதலியார்களும், செட்டியார்களும், வெள்ளாளர்களும் போட்டி போட்டுக்கொண்டு சற்றும் பொருந்தாத பெயர்களை சூட்டுவது வேடிக்கை தான்!
    //

    by the way, idhai sonnadhu yaaru?
    is it Mu.ka, the father of "STALIN" or Maruthuvar Ramadass, f/o Golden Hair(Ponmudi Ramadas)..Illa Erumava? sorry Thirumava?

    By Anonymous Deepak, at Wed Aug 08, 02:10:00 PM  

  • Zero,
    You mean, they removed the caste name suffix which was the (only) surname?

    Deepak,
    LOL @ "Seru Sagadhi" :)

    Akshaj(not Akshay)
    This is exactly the kind of name "they" would look for :)

    And as for the quote in Tamil, moonu perum illa, adiyen dhaan :oops: :)
    BTW, kelvi super-a Hey Ram style-la ketteenga.
    "Dei, Vishnu Sahsranamatha idhukku munnadi padichirukkeengala da?"

    OK, let me set this straight for the record, before anyone gets the wrong idea.
    1) I am not towing the line of "Brahmins vekkardhE thappu, ivanga vekkaraanga". Definitely not. I don't belive in the caste system and i have rejected my religion. I meant it in the sense that Brahmins have proximity to Sanskrit whereas others do not, relatively speaking. That makes it a bit odd, doesn't it?
    2) I don't necessarily tow the line of pure Tamil names. Most of our names have some vada mozhi part.
    3) The point is, vaaila nozhayaadha, yevanume kelvi padadha, "sh", "hr" sounds irukkara peru mela irukkara mogam dhaan purinjikka mudiyale.
    4) A Thamizhan naming his son "Stalin" or "Sachin" makes more 'sense' (for want of a better wrod) than the same person naming his son "Kshitij", or "Sharvan", or "Dhruv". Its purely based on my bias and also my idea of personal and cultural identity.
    I mean, i would have never forgiven my parents had they named me any of those things which fall under the vaayil nuzhayadha,kelvi padatha, adhi naveenathanamaana peyar.
    It will seem odd in my peer group and it will not be a correct reflection of my identiy.

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Wed Aug 08, 02:31:00 PM  

  • Bala,
    "Talking about names, the general Tamil practice of having only initials instead of surnames should be done away with - too many hassles arise because of that"......

    I am actually writing something about this matter...Neenga munthiteenga...:)
    But I differ from your conclusion........
    Viraivil ungal arugil ulla blogil......

    By Blogger mutRupuLLi, at Wed Aug 08, 05:22:00 PM  

  • shakespere enna solikiraru

    "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
    By any other name would smell as sweet."

    By Blogger vigneshwaran shanmugam, at Wed Aug 08, 07:55:00 PM  

  • If tambrams are more inclined to keep sanskitized/northie names, I really don't blame them for that:for a community that is barely 3% of the state and over 50-60% of whose kids eye BITS and out-of-state instis for higher education, I think they must have the liberty to go after any culture they please.

    By Blogger The Talkative Man, at Thu Aug 09, 05:21:00 AM  

  • முதல் தமிழ் பதிவிற்கு வாழ்த்துக்கள்.

    //You mean, they removed the caste name suffix which was the (only) surname?//
    Even if it did not directly reflect the caste, one can infer the caste from the surnames. We recently had a forign sec. called Sashank. It took a time for Delhi circles to digest that this man had just one name. His father had dropped the surname to get rid of his caste identity.

    I think dropping surnames was a good move. I agree it causes hassles. But it is quite a bearable nuisance.

    Regarding the pattern of Brahmins choosing Sanskritized names and the pattern passing on to other communities: very true.

    You may be interested in this book Freakonomics, a compilation of offbeat essays in economic/social analysis. One of the essays deals with names.A part of it is about how white naming patterns slowly spread across the rest of the US.

    //I meant it in the sense that Brahmins have proximity to Sanskrit whereas others do not, relatively speaking.//The 'proximity'is largely a perception. But sad that this is driving to extinction some very Tamil tongue twisters. If you spot an ArAvamudhan today, rest assured he will be one of the last.
    Hey ! So we do have last names.

    //........Kaetta Vishnu Saharanamathulerndhu Eduthaangalaam!//
    idhu ippo niRaiya solrAnga.
    "What does the name mean ?"
    "theriyaadhu....vishnu sahasranAmathula irundhudhu.."
    "dEi adhu PTO-va irundhu tholaikka pOguthu dA !"

    By Anonymous msp, at Thu Aug 09, 07:06:00 AM  

  • bala, :-). Kutravali koondula nikka vechuteenga ..irundhaalum, I chose from VSN only - meaning ellam therinju , sound ellam parthu , ketkaradhukku nalla irukkanu paarthu , ezhudhi paarthu dhaan select panninen.
    Adhellam sari, Kopperundevi tamizha, vadamozhiya? kalavaiya?Karunanidhi?

    By Anonymous raj, at Fri Aug 10, 02:03:00 PM  

  • >> 1) I am not towing the line of "Brahmins vekkardhE thappu, ivanga vekkaraanga". Definitely not>>

    Bala,

    1. You may have not intended but your post sounds like that. May be because you have tried it in Thamizh :-)

    2 >> I meant it in the sense that Brahmins have proximity to Sanskrit whereas others do not, relatively speaking >>

    What determines the proximity? I dont understand. If you could elaborate on that a bit, that would be helpful as I belong to a different religion, country and community - which have less/no ideologies and thoughts about caste based systems. As msp said it's the perception of the individual I too feel. Besides, raising an issue on names quoting caste itself makes things a bit uncomforatable. After all it's one's own name - and it's an individual right. yaar eppadi peyar vekkanumgrathu avanga thanipatta suthanthiram. JaathiyE thappu - athula jaathi or proximity base pannithAn pEr vekkanumnu nenekkkiRathu konjam sangadamA irukku.

    But I agree on the 'pronunciation' part. Entha pEraa irunthaalum ucharikkirathukku easy-a irunthA siramam kuRaivu - ellOrukkum :-)

    By Anonymous Roshan, at Fri Aug 10, 07:09:00 PM  

  • Adityas, Rahuls, Akshays and the lot are in great danger of becoming too common place and joining the ranks of mutts like Jimmy, Tiger etc

    The damage done by the "It's good to learn Hindi", "CBSE is so much better than State Board", "curd rice", generation is becoming apparent

    I think the anti-brahminism of the Dravidian movement is one of the reasons.Most brahmins seemed to have transferred their digust to Tamizh itself -some kind of confused conflation.

    Maybe books/booklets with list of Tamil names might be useful to confused parents. But then most of them are naming their kid Raakul more to keep up with Jones's than due to ignorance.

    ttm:
    Since the aim of most BITS guys is to leave the country, why not name the children James, Peter etc, instead of going through this intermediate Rahul, Aditya, Akshay ? ;-)

    By Blogger BNB, at Fri Aug 10, 08:25:00 PM  

  • Just wanted to add that TamBrams pale in this respect compared to KanBrahms and Telugu Brahmins.

    By Blogger BNB, at Fri Aug 10, 08:49:00 PM  

  • Sridhar,
    Actually this post has been waiting in the wings - inspired from your post and BNB's earlier posts on this topic.

    Viraivil ungal arugil ulla blogil......
    Avaludan kAthirukkirEn :)

    Vignesh,
    Shakespeare-nAlE nyAbagam varadhu vaigaippual-in gem - "idhu sAkespeare potta Omlette (Hamlet)"

    ttm,
    50-60% of whose kids eye BITS and out-of-state instis for higher education
    vada mozhi peyar vekkardhu "prachanai" illa... Akshaj, shhhh, hrssh, kthree etc indha madhiri peru vecha thaan light-a "prachanai" varudhu.. :)

    My chithappa named his daughter Gargi. One of my aunt's had this reply when i told her the choice - "yAru andha Russian author-a (Gorky)?"!!

    msp,
    nandri hai :)

    I think dropping surnames was a good move. I agree it causes hassles. But it is quite a bearable nuisance.
    Dropping caste-based surnames is welcome but even then it can be replaced with a simple protocol. For e.g, i can start by affixing my dad's name as the surname for pin varum generations.

    If you spot an ArAvamudhan today, rest assured he will be one of the last.
    Hey ! So we do have last names.

    LOL :)

    Raj,
    periya vArthai ellAm pEsittInga :oops:

    @*Tamil* and "Karunanidhi" et all - EKSI... hypocrisy defined.... en pErE vada mozhi dhAn :)
    Like i said, vada mozhi is not the "prachanai" per se...

    Roshan,
    :)
    After all it's one's own name - and it's an individual right. yaar eppadi peyar vekkanumgrathu avanga thanipatta suthanthiram. JaathiyE thappu - athula jaathi or proximity base pannithAn pEr vekkanumnu nenekkkiRathu konjam sangadamA irukku.
    Disclaimer/Reiteration: Let me clarify here. I completely agree with you. It's not a culture police post. I'm against the very idea.
    As i've mentioned, "it"s an articulation of my displeasure at seeing names which have no significance/identity/relevance to the culture of the parents. Its just my preference/bias.

    Let me give you an example:
    Someone I Know: "Hey, i'm going to name my (first) kid Murugan/Sakthi if it's a boy"
    Someone Else I Know: [b]"enna dee pEru idhu? Teak kadai la vEla seyyara payyan pEru mAdhiri irukku?"[/b]
    ...
    SIK: "How about you? What are you going to name your kid(s)?"
    SEIK: [b]"Ved/Rishi/Mrityunjai"[/b]
    Both of them are Tamil Brahmins

    What determines the proximity? I dont understand. If you could elaborate on that a bit, that would be helpful as I belong to a different religion, country and community - which have less/no ideologies and thoughts about caste based systems
    Sanskrit was the language of Brahmins. Most/many of "our" hymns are in Sanskrit. It was the language of the elite. It's believed to be a great language and i have no disputes with that nor giving Sanskrit names to kids.
    "Non-Brahmins" do not cross the path of Sansrkit in their lives apart from the Sanskrit-derived names and words which are aplently in many Indian languages.
    Its just that i find it a bit odd when someone selects a Sansritish or Hindi-ish name NOT because of any other reason except that it sounds "cool" and "stylish". It has "wannabe" written all over it. Yeah, we are all "wannabe" in varying degrees but this is so blatant and "uncool" :wink: :)
    That's why i said a Tamilian naming his/her kid Stalin (hypocrisy apart) or Sachin is better in my books. Atleast these have more relevance/significance and are less pretentious, even if they are "wannabe".

    Besides, raising an issue on names quoting caste itself makes things a bit uncomforatabl
    Actually i agree. Only after Zero's post did i realize/recollect that the caste name was the only surname for many of our ancestors and i agree with msp on that.

    BNB,
    I think the anti-brahminism of the Dravidian movement is one of the reasons
    This stance of the DM caused them has tainted them (ideology) more than the "things" they oppose!

    Since the aim of most BITS guys is to leave the country, why not name the children James, Peter etc, instead of going through this intermediate Rahul, Aditya, Akshay ? ;-)
    adhAnE? :))

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Sat Aug 11, 12:22:00 AM  

  • 1. You may have not intended but your post sounds like that. May be because you have tried it in Thamizh :-)
    True...
    Now apart from bad writing in English, the readers have to contend with my Tamil also! EKSI :(

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Sat Aug 11, 01:14:00 AM  

  • BnB says,
    "Since the aim of most BITS guys is to leave the country, why not name the children James, Peter etc, instead of going through this intermediate Rahul, Aditya, Akshay ? ;-)"

    LOL, same pinch thala. I was wondering about that too.

    BTW, what's with my name, Thilak pratap selva kumar? What do you guys think of it? It defies(d) every other convention you might expect. LOL.

    And, none of 'em are family names. I still have the initials, 'P' in front of my name. And no, my appa's name isn't Pratap selva kumar. :))

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Sat Aug 11, 02:14:00 AM  

  • //For e.g, i can start by affixing my dad's name as the surname for pin varum generations.//
    One of my cousins has done this. It has its own set of questions about patriarchy etc. We'll push that for later.

    Apart from compatibility with other countries I think we get along pretty fine with our 'initials' system.

    We must suggest the system to this poor chap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjith_Amunugama

    By Anonymous msp, at Sat Aug 11, 10:29:00 AM  

  • "Actually this post has been waiting in the wings - inspired from your post and BNB's earlier posts on this topic."

    Nanri Hai for that...Bala. :)

    msp,
    "If you spot an ArAvamudhan today, rest assured he will be one of the last.
    Hey ! So we do have last names."

    :):) Good one that...

    By Blogger mutRupuLLi, at Sat Aug 11, 11:45:00 AM  

  • Since the aim of most BITS guys is to leave the country, why not name the children James, Peter etc, instead of going through this intermediate Rahul, Aditya, Akshay ? ;-)

    Bala/BNB/Thilak,
    It might interest you all to know that there are little or no instances of a Rahul becoming Hool, Aditya becoming Ad or Akshays becoming Ax!

    Whereas there have been cases of Jagadeeswaran becoming Jag, Shanmuga sundaram becoming Shan Sundaram, Ravichandran becoming Raw Whey Shandran, Mahesh becoming Hesh, Natarajan becoming Nat(all of whom were tamnonbrams).

    Often got reminded of Senthil conveying his decision to Kounds about changing his name to Eye Thousand from Kannaayiram!!!

    BTW, Institutes can borrow TPSK's name to illustrate how to write one's name in applications(correctly in the boxes)! :)

    By Blogger The Talkative Man, at Sun Aug 12, 01:27:00 AM  

  • >>Sanskrit was the language of Brahmins. Most/many of "our" hymns are in Sanskrit. It was the language of the elite. It's believed to be a great language >>

    This statement sounds very arrogant and completely un expected from a person who had repeatedly showed displeasure in caste/religious based system. So according to you the "Brahmins" are THE elite? Sorry, that leaves nothing to be discussed. Sad.. Very Sad :-(

    By Anonymous Roshan, at Sun Aug 12, 08:46:00 PM  

  • //most of them are naming their kid Raakul more to keep up with Jones's than due to ignorance.
    //
    LOL!! did u notice most of the tamil TV serials have a character named "RaaGul"? "Ha" vey varalainna edhukku Hindi peru vekkanum? I pity the rural tamil people who are still finding it difficult to pronounce our generation names like "SUwedha", "VinoTHTH", "ICUwariya"

    By Anonymous Deepak, at Mon Aug 13, 09:32:00 AM  

  • //Someone I Know: "Hey, i'm going to name my (first) kid Murugan/Sakthi if it's a boy"
    Someone Else I Know: [b]"enna dee pEru idhu? Teak kadai la vEla seyyara payyan pEru mAdhiri irukku?"[/b]//

    Bala, TamBrams never name their kids "Murugan" or "Sakthi" as these names dont have the quintessential Sanskrit touch. So even before 50 yrs if someone suggested these names, he would have got the same reply. Whereas a name like Ramakrishnan or Narayanan was considered more appropriate.

    By Anonymous deepak, at Mon Aug 13, 09:55:00 AM  

  • Roshan, there's nothing wrong in what Bala said. thats the fact. Im not sure if you know the caste hierarchy which existed centuries back. Brahmins were considered elite and were the only ones who could write/read/access Sanskrit Slokas. But now things have changed and people from other castes learn sanskrit, recite rituals. But still a majority of people who know the vedas and read sanskrit mantras are Brahmins. This is just an open truth.

    By Anonymous Deepak, at Mon Aug 13, 09:56:00 AM  

  • Roshan,
    This statement sounds very arrogant and completely un expected from a person who had repeatedly showed displeasure in caste/religious based system. So according to you the "Brahmins" are THE elite? Sorry, that leaves nothing to be discussed. Sad.. Very Sad :-(
    Either
    a) This is an example of bad writing (mine)
    OR
    b) You should have understood it much better and it's surprising these comments are coming from you, especially the fact that you have quoted only part of lines, thereby removing the context.

    [Going by past records i like to believe its (a)]

    Let me explain:
    - Sanskrit was a language spoken by the Brahmins - FACT
    - When i say Sanskrit was the language of the "elite", again it's a FACT and not a value judgement. My stand against caste/religion etc cannot change the fact that Brahmins were part of the social elite.
    Perhaps elite should have been in quotes but then what difference does it make? If enjoying superior status in almost most walks of life doesn't signify eliteness, what does?? Does it mean i endorse this eliteness? NO! Does it mean i WANT Sanskrit to be the exclusive right of the Brahmins? NO!!
    You wanted me to explain the "proximity" thing better and i did. I gave conext and history. If you have any problems with that, please don't shoot the messenger.
    What i said explained how things were, and NOT how things ought to have been.
    You are implying that i meant that Sankrit language and Sanskrit names should be the exclusive right of the Brahmins - Certainly NOT. It's a question of relevance, pretentiousness and the "wannabe" quotient. Non-Brahmins (perhaps i have to quote this too) Sankrit dhArALamA kathukkattum. yAru vENdAmnA? Finding the practice of N-Bs giving Sanskrit names a bit odd does NOT imply that i am hinting that Sanskrit SHOULD be the exclusive domain of the Brahmins. idhukku mEla ennAla viLakka mudiyAdhu. I'm sorry but i can't help it if you still don't see my intent or interpretation :(

    You have quoted this line
    It's believed to be a great language but left out and i have no disputes with that nor giving Sanskrit names to kids. That gives a totally different interpretation of my intent. When i say "i have no disputes with that", does it not mean that i believe that irrespective of Sanskrit being a great language, the craze of naming kids with rare/stylized Sanskrit names is a bit odd?? Where is the arrogance or "superiority" thing here?

    I don't know what you "expect" me to write. I have categorically stated that what name an individual gives to his/her kid is a personal choice. I just find it odd that people give names which have no relevance, significance or representation to their identity.

    You have failed to understand that i have not attributed any superiority/inferiority here w.r.t Brahmins/Sanrkit names and Non-Brahmins/Tamil names.


    Let me ask you one question here. Let's say a practicing Hindu non-Brahmin couple name their kid "Scott Tiger". If i say it's a bit odd because the name has no relevance as far as identity/culture is concerned, would you take it that i am implying that Christians are superior to Hindu non-Brahmins and only the Christians have the RIGHT to have such names?
    I guess the analogy sucks but that's the drift...

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Mon Aug 13, 11:00:00 AM  

  • Roshan,
    @elite:

    c singular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society

    d : a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence - "members of the ruling elite>"



    http://www.webster.com/dictionary/elite

    Decide for yourself if my statement and usage of the 'elite' word was "arrogant" or judgemental or whatever.

    I think the misunderstanding is because you thought i meant "superior" when i wrote elite while i meant elite as defined above.

    I rest my case!

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Mon Aug 13, 07:02:00 PM  

  • Bala,

    >> Let me explain:
    - Sanskrit was a language spoken by the Brahmins - FACT
    - When i say Sanskrit was the language of the "elite", again it's a FACT and not a value judgement. My stand against caste/religion etc cannot change the fact that Brahmins were part of the social elite. >>

    Fine. That’s my problem too. What determines the ‘elite’ status? According to the definition quoted by you it is “the socially superior part of society” or “a group of persons why by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence”
    Let me start from the first. What makes a person or group of persons superior? I too am aware to a considerable extent as to what has happened in the past and how systematically people were discriminated by a particular group in order for them to gain that “superior” status. No human being on earth is born superior, educated , intellectual or with power. It all depends on what kind of exposure one gets in order to gain that knowledge, socio economic power and status. Systematically depriving others' rights, treating your fellow human being less than animals and gaining that superiority status is what you proudly claim as ‘elite’ – I am sorry according to the definition of humanity – it is called “barbaric”. And the repercussion of it, is visible in many parts with millions of people still being discriminated and deprived of all their rights. So please don’t try to endorse/reiterate it even if you like , dislike, approve or reject it. And specially when it comes from a person like you it hurts and disappoints.

    >> If enjoying superior status in almost most walks of life doesn't signify eliteness, what does?? Does it mean i endorse this eliteness? NO! >>
    If only a particular group is enjoying superior status of almost all walks of life – again it clearly indicates and emphasizes the “systematic” discriminative approach that had been implemented for 1000s of years in order to gain that ‘superior’ status . Other wise there is no way this could have been possible as God is not crude, cruel or unjust to create only a particular group superior than others in terms of knowledge, intellect, thinking or for that matter anything.

    UnakkAga ondru enakkAga ondru oru pOthum theyvam koduthathillai – Kavinjar Vaali solli irukkAr.

    Karuppu mandaikkuL irupppathum veLLai moolaithaan. Vaayppu yaarukku amaithu kodukkapadugiRathu enbathuthaan mukkiyam. - Vairamuthu


    >> What i said explained how things were, and NOT how things ought to have been. >>

    And what holds for the future too doesn’t seem that pleasant and favorable my friend – specially when educated, liberal thinking youth like you are having issues over ‘naming’ based on caste and associating it with one’s culture and identity.

    >> You are implying that i meant that Sankrit language and Sanskrit names should be the exclusive right of the Brahmins - Certainly NOT. It's a question of relevance, pretentiousness and the "wannabe" quotient.
    Non-Brahmins (perhaps i have to quote this too) Sankrit dhArALamA kathukkattum. yAru vENdAmnA?
    Finding the practice of N-Bs giving Sanskrit names a bit odd does NOT imply that i am hinting that Sanskrit SHOULD be the exclusive domain of the Brahmins. >>
    I don’t know what you intend to say. NB’s sansnkrit thaaralma kathukalaamnu solreenga, and you also accept that Sanskrit is not the exclusive right of the Brahmnis. Still why do you feel odd when non Brahmins “name” their kids in Sanskrit? Antha ‘odd’ part thaan konjam idikkuthu. If you are liberal in your thinking why cannot you accommodate the NBs naming their kids with Sanskrit names? That’s my concern. You have already spoken about the cultural identity associated with the caste. If Sanskrit is NOT the sole property of the Brahmins as you accept, what’s the concern of preserving one’s cultural identity through Sanskrit or non Sanskrit names. What’s their to feel odd when a NB uses it? Why cant you see the link of cultural identity in broader terms of Tamil, Tamil Nadu, Indian or even Hindu instead of caste – which has created so much havoc, discrimination, backward thinking, barbarism for over 1000s of years and still prevailing to a larger extent?

    I completely agree with you the ‘wannabe’ part and even I too am not favourable with any “wannabe” attitude by any one. But in terms of relevance I don’t see any issues. What relevance does one gain by associating names with a particular language (whether the language is great or not is perception based) even though it is supposed to have close proximity to a particular caste that too due to reasons which are considered controversial by many? If you are expecting to uphold the culture and routes in terms of caste based identity– then why only name? Don’t people ( Brahmins or Non Brahmins) break the caste based cultural norms which are solely applicable to them?

    Ithukku mela ennaaleyum ezhutha mudiyAthu. My outburst is mainly because I didn’t expect this from a person like you. I am hurt and disappointed. And I don’t intend arguing further on this.

    By Anonymous Roshan, at Mon Aug 13, 09:23:00 PM  

  • I guess Roshan mistook it. :)

    TTM,

    "BTW, Institutes can borrow TPSK's name to illustrate how to write one's name in applications(correctly in the boxes)!"

    Absolutely! During counselling, I couldn't write my name in the given application. The last letter "R" from kumar had to be written outside the boxes provided by Anna university. Had to meet some official and clarify, semma thalavali! I was pissed off about my name for the first time :))

    TPSK

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at Mon Aug 13, 10:26:00 PM  

  • ttm:
    tpsk is nowhere in the thread :-)BTW, I remember the IIT forms used at one time a certain "Kamalesh Marthanda Sahasrabuddhe" as an example.

    BTW, I have heard a "Chaitanya" called "Chet" in the US - so it's not just tamil names. How about Eastern european names like Polish names - they are as difficult or more difficult than Tamil names. I don't think the Americans can do Polish names well - come to think of it, they can't do anything other than English Christian names well.

    Adhanaala dhaan solren, ippavey Steve, Chuck, Shaun indha madhiri peru vecha apparam prachanai irukkadhu :-D

    Interesting discussion, peragu vaaren.

    By Blogger BNB, at Tue Aug 14, 09:32:00 AM  

  • vidungappa, viduungappa. Bala edho saadharanama solla poga, ippadi kurukshetrame nadathiteengalepa: -)
    Bala, I agree with you - wannabe cool names-kagaa vekka padara names-ai condemn pannalam. Thappe illai. Avangalum andha perai vechukalam. Adhuvum thappe illai. Adhai Kandikka koodadhunu nammalai kandikaaradhum fasicism dhaan :-)

    As for me, indha vishayathula ivlo naan yosikkalai. Edhavadhu different-a peru vekkalamnu dhaan I thought out Kopperundhevi and the otehr sanskrit name, which actually doesnt exist but I kind of combined a couple of words and coined it. Devi is itself sanskrit-ndradhalyum, koppperundevi is not coined by me appadingaradhulayum, en ego-vai satisfy pannikka, "Naan Coin pannina" en sondha sagityamana peyarai naan vechaen. Idhukku enna solveenga makkale. Idhelllam appadiye varadhu dhaan, loose-la vidunga. Especially Roshan, ivlo psycho-analysis thevaiye illai.

    BTW< Thilak, Why are you named after that loose pothen :-)
    (see, eppadi vena twist pannikklama namma ninaicha :-)

    By Anonymous raj, at Tue Aug 14, 12:15:00 PM  

  • bnb, shaun-ai shane-nu padikkanum. Irish Name. Adhuvum Americansku kashtam dhaan. Shane-nu vekkanum. BTW, americans-ai vida mosamana makku moolaingalai pakkanuma?Go to australia!

    By Anonymous raj, at Tue Aug 14, 12:17:00 PM  

  • Roshan,
    I'm sorry to say that i'm surprised by the fact that you are persistently misunderstanding me and are assuming a lot of things.
    Everybody else clearly sees you have misunderstood the whole point of the post and the comments and still you are holding on to your misunderstandings!

    I repeat: If you didn't know already, please understand that the word "elite" is also used in a not so positive or praising manner. Foe example, when i say "the elites control the country", the elite here refers to the group of politicians/corporates/intellectuals who exert great influence and control over a country. ingE "elite" endra sol pugazhchiyil kUrappaduvadhu illai.
    It signifies they control the people. In that sense, they enjoy superiority. How can you twist it and imply that i am supporting or advertising their dominance? How can you say that i am proud of their dominance? Are you going to deny that they are dominant? That is why i had quoted the dictionary definition.
    "The Soth African masters were the socially superior class and they had dominance over the slaves" - If i say this, will you claim that i am endorsing slavery and i am proud of the superiority and dominance of the white masters??? This is exactly what you did

    and gaining that superiority status is what you proudly claim as ‘elite’ – I am sorry according to the definition of humanity – it is called “barbaric”
    - This is shocking, surprising and sad, because you continue to misunderstand and assume/interpret meanings i never intended or expressed. nIngaLE ippadi paNNalAmA?
    How in the wolrd can you say i "proudly claimed Brahmins were the elite"??? Please get the meaning of 'elite' first. ELITE IS NOT USED AS A PUGAZHCHI HERE. Socially superior = dominant. "Excercise control by virtue of position and/or education" = dominance.

    When i say Brahmins were socially dominant, it is a FACT. I am merely stating the FACT that they were the bosses. Did i say i was proud of that? Did i say it was right??? Did i say they DESERVED it? NO. Did i say it was NOT a result of oppression and other designs? From where did you get such interpretations. Please understand my usage of elite and infact the meaning of elite itself. I know very well about the barbarian practices, the caste hierarchies and the oppression based on caste differences and don't need to be told about that, thank you. Its baffling that you are claiming i was "proud" that Brahmins were part of the elite even after i explained beyond any reasonable ambiguity that elite = dominant. Why did the word elite come in my sentence? To explain the exclusivity of the Sanskrit language. Do i endorse it? No. Do i advertise it? NO. This was how things were, which i had to explain because you wanted an explanation of the "proximity" angle.

    NB parents giving Sanskrit names and why it is odd:
    I don’t know what you intend to say. NB’s sansnkrit thaaralma kathukalaamnu solreenga, and you also accept that Sanskrit is not the exclusive right of the Brahmnis. Still why do you feel odd when non Brahmins “name” their kids in Sanskrit? Antha ‘odd’ part thaan konjam idikkuthu. If you are liberal in your thinking why cannot you accommodate the NBs naming their kids with Sanskrit names?


    Firstly, please read the question in one of my previous comments - "Scott Tiger". Then you will understand why i used the word "odd".

    Secondly, maybe you are not aware that many of the Tamil names we have (NB-s included) are Sanskrit derivatives and i have already stated that i have no "problem" with that. Since you have failed to see my position on that, among other things, you have misunderstood me on this one as well.
    Thirdly, you have forgotten/overlooked the fact that i find Brahmins giving kELvippadAdha, stylish, tongue-twisting Sanskrit names *odd* in the first place. If NB's who don't know Sanskrit give Sanskrit names, of course it is odd. It is like a N.Indian guy who knows nothing about Tamil from remote Bihar giving his son a name "Senthamizhchelvan". IT IS ODD, and the situation is no different from the one you are objecting to. So, are you going to accuse me of discriminating against Biharis giving Tamil names just for saying that i find it odd?
    In the case of a Tamilian naming his son "Lenin" or "Sachin", yes, there is no cultural/relevance but its after an idol. Wannabe but not pretentious. I see a motive which i like better than pure "wannabe"-ness. A Tamil Brahmin keeping a weird, rare, unpronouncable Sanskrit name and a Tamil non-brahmin (who doesn't know Sanskrit) keeping a Sanskrit name are both odd to me. Based on my sheer personal bias and preferences (as i've REPEATED) "Lenin" or "Sachin" or "Bruce Lee" sound better than "Kshitij", "Ved" or "Sharvan", Brahmin or otherwise. I'm sorry if you are going to make assumtions that i'm casteist i'm sorry i can't help it.

    If Sanskrit is NOT the sole property of the Brahmins as you accept, what’s the concern of preserving one’s cultural identity through Sanskrit or non Sanskrit names
    Roshan,
    Now this is getting tedious, whew!
    Repeattu: So-called Sanskrit knowledge irukkara (most of the Brahmins today, including my family members) have little or no Sanskrit knowledge. I mean, they might know hymns but not the meanings. ippadi irukkumbOdhu, ivanga Sanskrit-a kAppAtharEn pErvazhInnO, illa "stylish"-a irukkunnO, stylized Sanskrit names vekkaraanga. illAdha culture-a uphold paNNa ninaiikardhu avanga, nAn illa. That, to me, is odd.
    Please read my comment about the conversation between the two Tamil Brahmin women i know and you will know my stand on this.

    To NB's (i am talking about those NB's who dont know Sanskrit at all), my point is NOT like this:
    "Sanskrit therinja (or theriyAdha) Brahmins-e Sanskrit pEru vekkA kUdAdhu nu solrEn... nInga ennadA Ina jAdhippasanga!"

    Rather, its like:
    "Sanskrit aragorayA therinjO, illa theriyAmayE keLvippadAdha vAyil nuzhayAdha pEru vekkara Brahmins-in pazhakkamE odd-a irukku, nIngaLum avangamAdhiri 'wannabe'-a irukka nenaikkardhum kaNdippa odd-a irukku".

    A fair part of your comment accuses me of "trying to uphold cultural identity based on caste" or some such thing. It's a question of "wannabe" and pretentiousness in varying degrees irrespective of caste or any such shit.
    If your accusation were true, i would "object" (periya Supreme Court judge-a nu kekkalaam) to "Stalin", "Sachin" etc...
    puriyaravangaLukku puriyum, puriyAdhavangaLukku puriyavekka muyarchikkalAm, adhukku mEla oNNum paNNa mudiyAdhu...

    FYI, i'm going to give my kid(s) Tamil name(s)(maybe Sanskrit derived name but then most of our names are).

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Tue Aug 14, 12:28:00 PM  

  • (whether the language is great or not is perception based)
    My line about the Sanskrit language being great was clearly made in defence of my bias AGAINST rare, unheard-of and stylized Sanskrit names. In other words, if i'm not wrong, you think that i consider Sanskrit to be a great language and i'm "objecting" to NB's giving Sanskrit names. For the 'n'th time, let me reiterate that and request you to read the offending sentence (great language) fully. ennudaya statement-ku artham "enna dhAn Sanskrit great language-A irundhAlum, giving rare, unheard-of, stylized Sanskrit words is odd, be it Brahmins or others".

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Tue Aug 14, 01:57:00 PM  

  • Roshan,
    Stating things as they stand is not wrong - in fact, it's the only right thing to do. Otherwise you're starting with wrong assumptions - bad start. For example, I am now 200% convinced that movie audiences for English movies in Chennai/Bangalore are far better behaved than for Tamil or Kannada movies. I would have to be ignoring the obvious truth, if I did not admit that given the amount of time, I have spent in movie theatres in my life. Now you can call that prejudiced and accuse me of being a narrow minded person and a Peter etc. But the fact remains. The right thing to do in this case would be try and figure out why this is so, instead of shooting the messenger.

    Gujaratis make much better businessmen than Tamilians, The Anglo-Saxon race has ruled the world for the last couple of centuries, Africans have produced more dictators than the rest of the world put together - what's wrong with any of these statements ? (With the usual caveats). Do the last two statements make me racist ? I don't think so! prejuidiced - maybe! loose with facts - maybe! But is that any indication of my character/value system - I don't think so!

    As for your question about why non-brahmins shouldn't give their children Sanskrit names, I think the real question is why is everyone following the bad brahmin example of totally disconnecting themselves from their Tamizh roots ? I think Bala is trying to suggest that at least in the case of brahmins they had an excuse to do. Maybe I am putting words in his mouth :-). The point to be noted is that Brahmin names in TN (with the exception of ones like Thirugnanasambhandar, Manikkavasagar etc : ) etc were mostly a harmonious blend of Sanskrit and Tamil. What's happening now is an attempt to totally sound North Indian, not sanskritised, mind you. If the other castes knowingly or unknowingly end up Raakulling themselves, they are fair game for discussion.

    Bala: feel free to delete this - no issues.

    By Blogger BNB, at Tue Aug 14, 08:40:00 PM  

  • Thanks Bala for your detailed explanation and response. Highly appreciated and I have to accept that many things got cleared with your response :-) Apologies for any mis interpretations.

    I totally agree with your stand on the ‘wannabe’ factor. As I said earlier I too am not comfortable with it but I don’t see any major issues with that. Inga ellArumE EthO oru vithathula ‘wannabes”-A thaan irukaanga. There are many in our part of the world who try to change their language, food, dress, hobbies and life style and display their desire to be ‘wannabes” . Thaai mozhiyil pEsuvathaiyE kEvalmAga ninaikkum ‘wannabes’-ku matthiyil – this ‘naming’ matter doesn’t seem that serious – at least to me.

    I have no disputes over the pronunciation matter raised by you as I too agree that it is always better to stick to simply pronounceable names instead of going for complicated ones with the aim of sounding stylish , and ending up as laughing stocks.

    But my concerns were mainly when you said about the culture and identity earlier.

    >> Its purely based on my bias and also my idea of personal and cultural identity.
    I mean, i would have never forgiven my parents had they named me any of those things which fall under the vaayil nuzhayadha,kelvi padatha, adhi naveenathanamaana peyar.
    It will seem odd in my peer group and it will not be a correct reflection of my identiy. >>

    It wasn't clear as to what you consider as your identity. Even now it is not completely clear to me eventhough you have reasoned out the context in which you had said it :-)


    And finally....

    >> FYI, i'm going to give my kid(s) Tamil name(s)(maybe Sanskrit derived name but then most of our names are). >>

    Good and all the best :-) aanal Sanskrit derivation illAtha nalla, azhagana thamizh peyargaLum uNdu :-) J/K.


    bnb,
    Thanks for your response too.

    >> As for your question about why non-brahmins shouldn't give their children Sanskrit names, I think the real question is why is everyone following the bad brahmin example of totally disconnecting themselves from their Tamizh roots ? >>

    If that is the case I completely agree BUT yArA irunthAlum caste denote paNNaatha peyar vechA nallA irukkum :-)At least to start with.

    By Anonymous Roshan, at Tue Aug 14, 11:52:00 PM  

  • Aaha, ini ennaththa solla ...

    But in the company i work in , they insist we use our father's names at the end. And more importantly the mail id has only the father's name with the first name as initial. So gradually people end up being called by their fathers' names.

    One of my friends is named shikshrutha Neelamekam. Tamil viguthi ulla peyargalyellam paarppathey aboorvamaa irukkuthu ...

    en perlaye, bhuvaneshwarannu enna yaarum koopittadhilla ... bhuvanesh, bhuvan, bhoo ippdi thaan poguthu ...I

    athula entha varuththamum illa .. But some people call me bhuvaneshwar ....Athaan kaduppadikkum ...

    By Anonymous bhuvanesh, at Wed Aug 15, 07:48:00 PM  

  • Roshan,
    Glad the misunderstanding is cleared now :))

    Yeah, like you said this naming thing is not serious at all and it was just an opinion...

    Even now it is not completely clear to me even though you have reasoned out the context in which you had said it
    Regarding my "forgiving my parents" comment - enakku stylized Sanskrit pEru vechirundhAngannA mannichirukka mAtten nu sonnen :))

    If that is the case I completely agree BUT yArA irunthAlum caste denote paNNaatha peyar vechA nallA irukkum
    Amaam Amaam!

    Others,
    Thanks for your comments! en urayai naan ithudan mudithukkolgiren :))

    By Blogger Bala (Karthik), at Thu Aug 16, 04:03:00 AM  

  • I would like to know the surname artham belongs to which caste.The gothram is Pedigeshila.This surname belongs to Telangana Districts.Can you please tell me

    By Blogger venkata sunil kumar, at Wed Oct 17, 04:42:00 PM  

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